Photo of Hà Phan

Guiding Principles for Product Leadership with Hà Phan

March 27, 2021 by UX-RADIO

In this episode, Hà Phan shares how she created Guiding Principles for Product Leadership.

Show Notes

  • Hà shares her perspective on leadership as an Asian woman – 8:00
  • Creating a set of guiding principles – 9:30
  • How she leads with empathy and doesn not sell out on her guiding principles like servant leadership, being an advocate, and promoting psychological safety. She is a leader on her own terms.
  • She can defend anything if she know her 5 whys – 12:45
  • What are guiding principles? These are key things that help you make decisions quickly or where to or not to make trade-offs. 12:15
  • Examples of guiding principles for products – 14:45
  • Solve for the immediate problem but architect for flexibility – 17:00
  • Search was the product I really needed. 18:12
  • If this metric moves, it’s right. This is data, not an opinion. 22:05
  • The whole team has to own the UX. 23:18
  • Storytelling “Music is the current that carries the story.” – GoPro 27:57
  • Her Twitter-famous storytelling 30:10
  • What would you like your legacy to be? 32:32
  • What is your advice to teams? 35:32
  • Suchness – who are you at your core.  34:20


Today’s guest is Hà Phan. She has had over 20 years of experience in UX. Her last notable UX role was Principal UX designer at GoPro, where she worked on novel experiences for storytelling in 2D and 360 video earning multiple patents. Currently, Hà is the Director of Discovery Products at Pluralsight, where she leads multiple product teams to build search, browse recommendations, and other discovery experiences. How do you go from storytelling experiences from a camera company to discovery products at an e-learning company you ask? Well, they’re all products powered by machine learning and started from nothing. You can say that Hà is addicted to building something from nothing. I can almost guarantee you’ll be inspired by this conversation with Hà.


Welcome to UX radio. This is Lara Fedoroff and I’m Chris Chandler. And I’m very excited today to welcome Hà, the Director of Discovery Products at Pluralsight to UX radio today. Welcome Hà!


Hi, Chris. Hi, Lara. Thanks for having me.


Well, thanks for being on the show. It’s really great to talk to you today. We’ve known each other for a little while. Anybody who is anybody on the internet knows you by your Twitter feed, I think you are Twitter famous in our industry which is richly deserved. And anybody who wants to check you out at HP daily rant should because it’s amazing and a quality feed. Here’s my main question to open up, we want to know how you got to where you are. Tell us a little bit about your career. Tell us the story. How did you end up in Pluralsight?


That would take me two weeks. I’m super old. I just give some highlights. I’ve been doing this for multiple decades, I would say how many. But yeah, I’ve done this a long, long time. I, I would say that the thing that differentiates me from UX practitioners today that I don’t know about you, Chris. But when I was going to school, there was no UX program, there was no cognitive science or anything like that. So I was an art student. And my first tech job was working at a company that built educational software, kind of like k 12 stuff, we built little gamelets, let’s I’m not sure if you guys remember. But in the 90s, there used to be these devices, like the Pixar, you know, like, the little devices before the iPad, where you put these cartridges inside these devices, and you play little games. And then you learn, for example, addition or spelling. So I did a bunch of things I did like a very, very odd parents game. And then I worked on a bunch of learning management systems for a number of years I did that. And then I kind of got out of the industry. You look at my LinkedIn profile, there’s like this gap. And I took a number of years off, I was a consultant for a long time because I was raising my son. So I have a lot of experience working as a consultant. And when you’re a consultant, you have kind of a mercenary attitude is like, you know, you have a bad client is like this is temporary. I’m not gonna be married to you for a long time, you know. So I think, you know, I’ve had a variety of experience, I also worked in agencies. So I know how to bid projects. And I know how to scope projects and how to manage client expectations. You know, just thinking about the outcome in a scenario where you’re trying to, you’re trying to land the next deal for the agency, right? So that’s not a UX mindset, but it’s more of a business mindset. So I’ve done a lot of different things that I think all of the experience I’ve had informs me what not to do. So, you know, like when you go on online, you see people writing about their case studies about what makes this successful. And I always say that I failed a lot, I failed a lot, and at a lot of different things or there are things that I’ve actually been successful at, but I learned that those are the things I don’t want to do. Like I have a boss who used to tell me that “Be careful about being good at something you don’t like to do.” So always keep that in mind. But anyway, that’s a snapshot of my career. I’ve done a little bit of everything and somehow by accident, it was never planned. I arrived here. I’m not one of those people who said okay, but there’s a need to be this title. I really am not about careers destination. So where I am today is purely by accident.


A lot of us have that same story.


It’s interesting, you talk about failing fast. Chris and I talked about that all the time. And it does seem like some of the painful lessons we learned just make us stronger leaders. Would you agree with that?


Yeah, I think so I think I’ve worked for a lot of, you know, companies, that toxic culture. So I learned pretty quickly how to build a colony inside a company so that you’re protected from that, or you can still make an impact. So yes, I would say that, I think the hard thing for us is that we’re always the ones who people look at or when people say a product didn’t work out or fail, they always talk about the UX of it first, because it’s the visible part, or the part they experience. But we don’t really don’t have any control. But it’s like this fallacy, this myth that yours is terrible. So the product failed. But really, there are a lot of contributing factors to the UX, right? Like, I feel like, the reason why I could do good UX today is that I am a leader, I could control the pieces of the puzzle. It’s funny, we had this conversation, you know, they somebody said, Can we talk about like, successful product, and I said, I never want to be like, a Concur. That’s a joke with between me and my friends was like, you know, I go from company to company, hoping to escape Concur, because, like, I do not want to click eight times to enter in an expense, you know, and every company and go to guy hope they’re not using Concur. Of course, they’re using Concur. And it’s the most, you know, one of the most successful products, because, you know, their business model is entrenchment. You’re entrenched, you’re stuck. So, yeah, so anyway, that’s, that’s how I feel about UX. I feel like I identify most strongly as a UX designer, even though my title is no longer a UX designer, and I care so much about UX. But there are so many things that are not within our control to build a good user experience.


Yeah, that’s so true. It’s one of the things that I know is always surprising to recent graduates, now that there are programs for UX designers, right. And they like it’s always such a rude awakening for a junior UX designer to realize that UX designers don’t rule the world, that when they get out in the world, they’re going to have to work with product managers, and the marketing team and the sales team and the developers, and the product managers. And it’s just that whole big investment of roles. I love that perspective. And, and I think that’s true of a lot of us that we are UX designers at heart and care passionately about UX, but to be able to find the role where you can actually provide space for the UX to happen, is really, I think, a challenge for many of us in this career.

One of the things you mentioned was that you feel like you’ve really learned about being a leader in your current role. And I’m curious about that, as someone who also would like to be a better leader.


Yeah. So there’s something that you should know about me is I’m a very hesitant leader. I don’t see myself as a leader for quite some time. When I’m given, when people ask me to be a leader, sometimes I tone it down, because I, I just don’t think that, you know, like, when you think of a leader, you think of size. You I always think of a white dude, okay? I think a white dude, and I just don’t feel like I’ll never be that person, I’ll never have that commanding presence. You know, whatever that story is, in terms of, you know, the story, there’s, there’s, there’s this prominent story that’s told, in all of the, you know, in all the tech startup now, the tech origin stories, right. And then the leader is never an Asian woman. And so, I always feel like, I couldn’t command that respect. For a long time, I just felt like, I could be a really effective, individual contributor. But I never saw myself as a leader for a long time. And also, like, throughout my career, all the leaders I’ve had were just major assholes. There’s this idea that you have to be an asshole, to make things work, you have to be an asshole to get the troops in line, you have to be an asshole to be able to make an impact and make the hard choices. Right, you hear that story. And I think I can never be that because I have a set of guiding principles. So this is actually what I do to kind of protect myself. Because I believe so much in integrity. So, you know, a lot of times you have to make bad choices because you’re told to, or because that’s what my boss tells me to do. But I don’t do it, I get fired, right? That’s like the bottom line. You can fight as much as you want, but at some point, you’re gonna get fired. That’s always the thing.

So for a number of years, when I was an individual contributor, I would always look for another job. Like, no matter how happy I am at a job, I always had a plan B. I always had enough money to leave at any time, or I always had another, I always stay connected with people. So if I quit, I could find a job at any time. So that if somebody asked me to make a hard choice, or they did something that I disagree with, I can say I’m out the door. And another thing I used to do was that I used to have a desk that didn’t have any of my personal artifacts on it, because I could walk away from the job anytime. Anyway. So the reason why I tell you that story is that it’s part of my thinking that I’ve never going to be a good leader, I can’t see myself as a good leader.

So when I came to Pluralsight, I was originally a product manager. That’s another story altogether of how I got into Product. But I felt like I had to take on the director role so that I could stay on my team so that I could enable my team to do what they need to do and protect them from noise. So I didn’t take that role on happily, because I like to be in the trenches and do the work. But another reason why I took on that role is that at Pluralsight, the number one gift of course that gave me is that I have a lot of empathetic leaders. And they’re just the nicest people I’ve ever met. Like, I didn’t believe it when I first came, when I encounter these people, I was like that can’t be real, like these people can’t be that nice. You know, when it came to Pluralsight, I actually said to my friend, that I’m probably the secret asshole in a product organization because everyone is so nice. It can’t be that nice, right? So just watching these leaders, lead with such empathy really made me feel like I could do that I could, you know, I could be a leader. And I would, you know, I wouldn’t have to sell out on any of my guiding principles. I could be a servant and the advocate for my people, I could fight for what’s right and I could promote psychological safety in my organization. And you know, it’s been great. It’s working exactly the way. You know, I hoped it would work. I have a great team. So yeah, so that’s what Pluralsight gives me, it’s made me feel like I could be a leader in my own terms.


That’s amazing. And so how did you establish these guiding principles?


I feel like I’ve always had it. It’s about being a good human, right. I feel like I could defend anything if I know that my “Whys”, like, I know why I am doing it. So before I make any decisions, I think a lot about, you know, what are the guiding principles around this problem, just so that we have a point of view, we don’t know if it’s right, but we’re gonna set a precedent to say, we think that we’re gonna contain it to these guiding principles. And it’s really good product development as well. And so, I think that in terms of, in terms of guiding principles, people ask me about what a guiding principle is. So let’s start there. A guiding principle could be values-related. So for example, servant leader, you know, there’s guiding principle under like, servant leadership. Advocacy, for me, is a big one. Basically, for me, it’s really hard to advocate for myself, because I think I’ve been selfish, or I have, you know, I don’t deserve it. So I go through all my demons in terms of how I can advocate for myself. But it’s very easy to advocate for other people. So you think about one of the key things, one of the keys that helps you to create the impact that you want, or one of the key things that will help you make decisions quickly and make trade-offs, right. So I will never trade off my team’s psychological safety for something else. Or, for example, we were talking about a roadmap, and I was like, I would never commit to a fixed roadmap, a fixed timeline with a fixed, with a fixed deliverable. So I could say that I have a level of confidence to deliver something within a certain timeline because I know enough about it. So those are the kinds of things that I try to write out. So that when I encounter that I can say, this is you know, so it enables me to have a clear position of my approach moving forward. And then people can rely on it consistently, that Hà will never, my team will tell you that Hà would never commit to a deadline or with a fixed timeline with a fixed scope. So they know that right. So I hope that answered your question.


It’s a great answer. I wonder if you could share some examples of guiding principles that you use for products.


Yeah, so I learned this actually from GoPro. I didn’t that was what it was. But when, when the product manager I worked with at the time did this, it kind of created a spark, right? So we were working on this on the project, and we were building this, this machine-assisted video editing tool, right. And the cool thing about this is that it wasn’t, it wasn’t based on like you selecting the beginning and end of a clip. So you weren’t managing time you were kind of like just saying, going through the video and saying, this is a moment, this is the moment and this is the moment and somehow the tool, just concatenate these things and build like a short video that is synced to music immediately within like five minutes, right? So when we were going through this, we started to think about like, what are the key points that we can make that could help the team make decisions. So we talked about like, this is, this is about, it’s about being lightweight, right? So whatever decision you make, you want to make sure this tool is lightweight. Because if you make a complex, it’s very easy to make a solution complex, you’re starting to add more features to overtime. So lightweight was a guiding principle. So anytime when we think of each of this feel lightweight. Another thing we talked about was a moment over time. So you’re just going through and making marks about moment, as soon as you introduce the concept of like, too much tuning and editing with time, like it begins at this point, that point, you’re starting to do math in your head, and then the experience stop being magical, and playful. So those two are kind of guiding principles.

In terms of working tactically, sometimes, there are a couple of guiding principles that I give my designers all the time at the beginning of the process. So when you’re at the beginning of the process, and you’re not going to get to the ultimate, beautiful, awesome thing right away. So you’re making small bets, I always say, solve for the immediate problem, but architect for flexibility. So that you know you’re making, you’re being nimble, so that over time you needed to use that pattern for a long time, it will still work for many different use cases, then, later on, when you reach a point where you feel good about the experience, you can always go back and tune it. So that’s a guiding principle I use time over time, I always every new designer who works with me will hear me say that.


That’s wonderful I think it really helps to steer the team in the right direction. I would love to just kind of change the topic a little bit and dig into your experience at Pluralsight. It sounds like you’re having such a great experience there. And I love that you have talked about search, and how one of the biggest problems is information architecture. So I’d love to hear your perspective on that and how you’re approaching it.


I always tell people that search was the product that I didn’t really ask for but it was the product I really needed. When I first came to Florida, I was hired to be the product manager for AI. And it was very broad because I don’t think people understood what the AI is supposed to do because they didn’t really have a handle on the data that’s required right to have to build a really good AI experience or figure out what your AI is supposed to do. So when I first came to Pluralsight, I was hired to be the Product Manager for AI. And at the time, I think there was this vision but not a clear understanding of our data set. And you really have to have data excellence and data strategy to be able to drive like an AI strategy. So I understood some of that since I’ve worked so much with machine learning at GoPro before. So I did a lot of research, what I wanted to understand why first came to flows that way you understand like, what is the user’s mental model? And how is that currently captured in the system? Like what are the how those behaviors and data points kept in the system? How is the content architected? So I had like a, I did a ton of research to have a broad understanding of that. And then I thought if I understood that, then I can kind of say what I want the AI to do. So when I started doing that, I realized that a lot of the starting points in the product begin with the search. And that’s common. A lot of people start their journey on a product on search. And I saw there was a huge opportunity there. And at that time, I think our platform is scaling. And so I realized that no one’s really focusing on search time and so many of the problems were on search and if I could work on search, I could understand what the some of the key user behaviors and how the data points connect, really, it was just a bunch of questions for me that I needed to answer. And once I start asking these questions, I can’t stop. So I actually asked my boss at the time to put me on search. And at that point, there was no team assigned to search. In most people’s minds search was already done. Because there was a UI, and you can type things in, and then return results.


I blame Google for that, right? We’re all bored with search.


Yeah, but we were so far off of that. At that time, I feel like I understood that a point that the way that search was then it couldn’t scale. And so I asked to be put on search. And it took me six months to get a couple of engineers to be assigned to search. So that was my journey of building that team from scratch. Engineers who join had never worked on search before, they had never worked on Elastic Search, they didn’t, you know, it was just looking at search is really, really hard. Like, I feel like the hardest thing I’ve ever worked on. So I felt like that was actually an advantage because none of us knew any better. We knew that we were dumb, like, we knew that we didn’t know what the heck we’re doing. But none of us felt like we knew better than the other person. Like, there was no engineer that came in as an adult. There was nobody who did that everybody was like, we have no idea what we’re doing. So, but I think the main thing that I loved about working on search, and that has taught me so much is that when you build other products, you build a UI, you arrive with some experience, and then you test it, and then people use it, and you click through things that is done. You know, it’s like, it worked the way we thought it was gonna work right or wrong, it worked. In search, it’s like, you can build a UI, and you can return search results and be completely wrong. And the only way that you would know that it’s right or wrong is to be able to define the right metric to say that this is relevant. And the way I explain it to my team is that when you have a single metric to say that if the metric moves, this metric moves, that means it’s getting better. That means this is right. So there’s, there’s a sort of truth to that there’s no opinion or anything, everybody’s aligned around the single measurement around a data point that had that is free of opinions. There are opinions on how you define that measurement. But when you agree, that’s the measurement. It’s a kind of truth, and it’s very freeing. It also allows you to think about everything experimentally and that there’s this continuum of right. So I don’t know, explain it, but it was, it changed how I thought about, you know, how to work, the thought change how I thought about how I approach products. And it changed how I thought about how I work with engineers. So the whole team has to own the UX. The whole team asked questions about the US. And I felt like that is how you act needed to be done. You know, like, I felt like this environment that we built, it’s culturally built, where engineers are involved at the very beginning, you know, figuring things out, and then, you know, product and design also are doing explorations. And we come together tinkering, not knowing where we’re going to get to it, just the just very pure experience, I feel. And it’s what I strive to build in every team that I work with. I had that kernel of a thing when I worked on the R&D team at GoPro and I came to Pluralsight. I wanted to recreate it. I did, I didn’t think I could. And I think I did in a sense, I created a better different team. It was a good team. But you know, people are people and they are different. So I think the spirit of it was right. But it’s what I strive to do all the time.


I’d love to know more about so many things that you just said there. By the way, I could follow up in many different ways. But I want to ask you about another thing that you had mentioned to me earlier about how some of your earlier experiences have led to sort of storytelling being a foundation to how you approach things and I’m really curious if you could tell us more about that and how storytelling works into your approach and and how you use it.


The storytelling is very personal to me. If you don’t know, I don’t think many people know this about me. My father is a writer. He’s a very accomplished writer. He tells a joke in my family was he’s always hoped that I would become a writter. So when he comes to my house, this is years ago, he’ll come over because I have this half-written book. And you know, you’ll come over and he’ll say, you know, when I’m not when I was your age, I was already really famous. And I want to tell him, Dad, I have a Twitter feed that has, like, 8,000 followers, I don’t really take that seriously. But, I don’t know how many years there was ago, but I, I think I identify very strongly with being a writer is I think, and maybe it was a decade ago, I wanna I want a writing contest for a short story. I forgot, like, what the organization was. But I did it because I wanted to prove to my friend, I was terrible. Because my friend keeps saying, you know, you need to write a book. And I’m like, I’m really terrible. And I have this thing that I have partially written. She’s like, why you should submit it to the thing, and I submitted it, and I won. So I supposed to take that on further.

To go back to your thing about storytelling. Another way that I approached product development was at the startup right after I left GoPro. And this product manager of mine, my friend, his name is Jovan Perez. He’s like, one of those brilliant people ever worked with. But one of the things that we used to do is we used to write mission statements in the ideation process. As a way to get to the guiding principle, it’s a way to kind of focus the design. So for example, at the time we were working on, you know, the idea of technology for smart homes, and I just came in, I was like, I have no idea why you hired me and what I’m building here. So I asked him, I said, What’s the story? What’s the story for this product? And he’s like, the story is that you’re in this house, and the butler has no arms. And that became a thing, like a butler has no arms, right? So a lot of times we start building a product, I would write down like these mission statements, and they’re just temporary, but it gives me a way to ground myself, you know, to say, what, what do I need to do to make this story true. The other thing that we used to do is we know when I was working with jobin, at GoPro, and we were trying to build this new experience for storytelling, this editing video editing experience. And we would coin these phrases when we were presenting the research. And it seems like we were being very, like organic or spontaneous, but we planned it. So we would say things like, we were describing how we were using this music template that was synced to the to, you know, the video clips? I would say, Well, yeah, you know, because music is the current that carries the story. And I did it kind of spontaneously, but it felt like it was in the moment, and people remember it. And to this day, my friend still remembers it. He’s like, are you gonna say that thing again, when music is the current that carries the story. But when we use the coin, these phrases in our presentation, and it’s like, it’s one of those things where when you say you understand the product immediately, but you do it in a way where it feels spontaneous, so that when people ask when people attend the presentation, they always remember that, and they’ll say it again. And they think that they invented it.


And that’s really the trick, then the story, you know, continues to be retold, right? It doesn’t need to be this long thing is a narrative that helps you focus on what the product is about. So I learned that at GoPro and you know, it’s kind of weird that GoPro is it’s all about storytelling. And then we rolled in this concept of how you know, storytelling helps us to build a product also, by carrying that with me every single time when every time I do something I think of like, what is the story here, and then I tried to write that one sentence. And I’ll say it sometimes I write on my whiteboard in the back, just so that I see like this, it’s just really stick. Could I carry this through? And if it does, then I will, you know also keep it in my strategy deck. But anyway, that’s the vein of storytelling and something I’ve kept practicing time over time and fine-tuning.


Well, it sounds like you’re definitely implementing storytelling in your product design. But it seems like also, you’re doing that on your Twitter feed as well. You know if you can think of your Twitter feed As a story. And what I love about your Twitter is that you take a strong point of view on things. And it sort of shows the values that you carry. Do you feel like you’re telling a story on Twitter?


Yes, so I have a lot of goals when I use Twitter. Everybody, I get a lot of people who DM me and tell me how great it is and how they’ve learned a lot from following me on Twitter. I also get people who might pay me to write their own Twitter. But I tell them it doesn’t work like that. I really don’t go on Twitter and think, oh, today I’m going to teach people something. Or I don’t think about like, you know, I’m trying not trying to like, build my brand or anything like that. It’s my Twitter feed actually started out as a way for me to rant. Hence the handle HP daily rant, I used to say that don’t expect too much from Twitter feed with a handle daily rant in it. But it started out as a way for me to rant daily about startup life because I used to work at the startup. And there’s also so many ridiculous stories every single day that came up. But over time, what happens that I change jobs. And with each job, I would report, it’s like a my way of talking myself down with like a diary post of what’s happening or things I’m trying to figure out.

Sometimes when I encounter problems, I have a muse and some people don’t know, they’re my muse. Obviously, it could be like, a bad boss is my muse. Or it could be like inspirational people, sometimes the good news and sometimes the bad news, but I’m speaking directly to those people. They don’t know it, but I am. So yeah, so it’s like me reporting from the field. That’s actually what, Christian Crumlish I stopped the Christian a couple of weeks ago. And he said that you say things that other people never say it’s like you’re reporting from the field? I said, Yeah, because sometimes I’m writing it immediately after it happened. So my engineers notice to go like, occasionally, we got to check out hospitals to see what she’s really saying about us. Because we know that we know this happens, and she’s gonna report on it on Twitter. So So that’s kind of where you know the rant comes from. It’s actually a true diary of what’s happening in my daily work life.


Nice. Great reading. All right. Now, here’s a question that we like to ask all the guests on UX-radio, which is, what would you like your legacy to be?


That’s a really hard question. Because I feel like I’ve largely sold out. You know what I’m saying like this. I feel like, if you asked me a 21-year-old, my 21-year-old self, what I would want to do is not this. So I’ve asked myself that recently. And I think, I don’t think it’s this. I’ve done a lot of great things. You know, I feel like I’ve been at let me rephrase that. I don’t think what I’m doing is great. I think lately, I started to think that my legacy would be that I build good teams. I haven’t done it long enough to say that I’m an expert at it or anything, I just think that people who work with me can reliably know that I have their back and I will advocate for them to the best of my ability. But if my 21-year-old self would see me today, she would say that I’ve sold out.

You’re too humble, much too humble I think. Mainly because I think I was an art student and at 21, I thought of becoming a Buddhist monk at one point. So from that point of view, I feel like I’ve sold out. I don’t feel bad about it, because that’s just how life works. But, you know, everybody has that there’s a term in Buddhism that it’s about us, it’s called suchness. And suchness is the core of who you are, without all the external stuff. It’s like, and I don’t think that this is who I am at my core. I think it’s this part of it. What I like researching, I like chasing things and I’d like to connect the dots. So at my core, I’m a thinker and philosopher, and I think, that I get to do some of that in my job. But you know, left to my own devices without having to make a living and worrying you’re taking care of people. I what I do that I don’t know if I would do it. It’s like a I think someone who asked me this question recently. I said that I take my job very seriously, but also not seriously. at all, like, I see myself as a serious puzzle solver. I have fun solving the puzzle – a really hard puzzle. And I really like the puzzle. But at the end of the day, I can leave the puzzle, right?

You did talk about how your teams come together, and we’re working much better together after you are sort of diving deep into search. I’m curious, as you think about teams, who are working in silos and like, what would your advice to them be to work closer together as a great team?


I think the thing that most teams and most people are missing is that they ask very poor questions. And they have to get the question right. Before the they can come up with good solutions. And the reason why if you’ve focused on the right questions, then you can actually detach your ego from it and stand on each other shoulders to ask better questions. So if you read, say, for example, you and I get together and we decide that we don’t know anything about building a wall. But I want to come over to to your house one day and figure out how we’re going to build a wall because you want to, you want to do build a house. So we’re gonna research it together, and then we’re going to, you know, just figure it out, right? So, you know, you’re going to go research and do your thing, we go Hà, I read this thing is you start with a framing, blah, blah, and I was like, Well, you know, where, what kind of wood do we need? And how many, what’s the size? And then how many pieces do we need? That’s all these questions, then you just come together because of the questions. So I think that that’s where I would start is that you start with just asking really good questions and then ask why you’re asking those questions. And look, you know, focus on the problem and not so much on the solution right away. And then everything else kind of melts away. Once you have that you have the core culture of how you work together, you build trust, you articulate, you know, you know how to articulate the questions, you’re, you know how to prove yourself wrong. Because if you and I, Lara, built the wall wrong, it wouldn’t hold up anything, right? And then that’s okay, too, because then we did it. We go well that sucks. Well, let’s do it again. So, I think that that’s the number one thing people kind of talk about operations. And then you know, process but really, it’s really about, it’s always about the human factor, right, how we treat each other, how we work together, how we ask good questions, and how we help each other, become successful. But we don’t do that by going to a workshop. We just do it because we help each other.


That’s a wonderful answer. Thank you so much. And thank you for joining us on today’s show.


Thank you so much. It was so great talking to you both.


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